AMBER Archive (2009)

Subject: RE: [AMBER] question of ibelly used in pmemd

From: xiaoqin huang (xqhuang1018_at_msn.com)
Date: Mon Jul 20 2009 - 12:39:16 CDT

thanks, Ross. I will read more about ibelly.

> From: ross_at_rosswalker.co.uk
> To: amber_at_ambermd.org
> Subject: RE: [AMBER] question of ibelly used in pmemd
> Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 10:32:08 -0700
>
> Hi Xiaoqin,
>
> I thought I would add my 2c to this discussion. Firstly I just want to give
> a caution with regards to the use of ibelly. That is that you really not use
> it!!! It simply zeros the forces and is in no way correct or physical.
> Especially if you start doing things like NPT simulations with it. In this
> case your virial will be wrong, you pressure will be wrong and thus your
> density will be wrong. If you must restrain things then you should probably
> use harmonic restraints.
>
> Note, things like seeing a 200K temperature drop on the first step makes
> sense with using belly for such a huge portion of your syste, If you are
> starting from a restart file where things were not frozen and then you
> suddenly freeze a chunk of it you have just magically destroyed a ton of
> kinetic energy...
>
> With regards to the problems you are seeing this could be because of all
> sorts of issues including trying to do NPT with ibelly. One thing to try is
> make sure you set nscm=0 when doing Belly runs, Sander may be doing this
> while pmemd is not. Second make sure you do not try to use langevin dynamics
> (ntt=3) with ibelly since it will likely not work.
>
> All the best
> Ross
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: amber-bounces_at_ambermd.org [mailto:amber-bounces_at_ambermd.org] On
> > Behalf Of xiaoqin huang
> > Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 10:21 AM
> > To: amber_at_ambermd.org
> > Subject: RE: [AMBER] question of ibelly used in pmemd
> >
> >
> > 1)thanks Kristina, for your sharing of these information.
> > since ibelly=1, works in your NVE MD by pmemd, and works in my NTP MD
> > by sander, but why not work in my NTP MD by pmemd?
> >
> > 2)in your nmropt=1 and ibelly=1 input file, try to put another "&end"
> > or "/" just after your line of "DISANG=Dummy.rst", then possibly will
> > read in all your input.
> >
> > 3)I am gzipping my files, and I will send to you: Bob Duke.
> >
> > all the best
> >
> > xiaoqin
> >
> > 07/20/2009
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > From: Kristina.Furse.1_at_nd.edu
> > > To: amber_at_ambermd.org
> > > Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 12:56:26 -0400
> > > Subject: RE: [AMBER] question of ibelly used in pmemd
> > >
> > >
> > > > what I doubt now is not the nmropt=1 in pmemd, I doubt ibelly=1 can
> > be used in pmemd or not.
> > >
> > > This is not the case--I am running pmemd w/belly as we speak, with
> > the following input:
> > >
> > > DNA/counarin: 100ps NVE MD belly
> > > &cntrl
> > > imin = 0, irest = 1, ntx = 7,
> > > ntb = 1,
> > > ntt = 0,
> > > cut = 10,
> > > ntc = 2, ntf = 2,
> > > tol = 0.0000001,
> > > ntr = 0,
> > > ibelly = 1,
> > > iwrap = 1,
> > > nstlim = 50000, dt = 0.002,
> > > ntpr = 100, ntwx = 50, ntwr = 1000
> > > /
> > > Movable belly for water and ions
> > > RES 25 9985
> > > END
> > > END
> > >
> > > Works just fine. I did run into a problem when I tried to run
> > ibelly=1 and nmropt=1, though. Unlike Xiaoqin, it was a problem reading
> > in the input, not with the simulation itself. I wasn't using any actual
> > nmr distance restraints, I just wanted a temperature ramp so I used the
> > nmr weights with a dummy (empty) DISANG file, as follows:
> > >
> > > DNA: 50ps NVT MD with temperature ramp
> > > &cntrl
> > > imin = 0, irest = 0, ntx = 1,
> > > ntb = 1,
> > > ntt = 1, tautp = 0.2,
> > > tempi = 0.0, temp0 = 300.0, nmropt = 1,
> > > cut = 10,
> > > ntc = 2, ntf = 2,
> > > ibelly = 1,
> > > iwrap = 1,
> > > nstlim = 25000, dt = 0.002,
> > > ntpr = 100, ntwx = 100, ntwr = 1000
> > > /
> > > &wt
> > > type='TEMP0', istep1=0, istep2=10000,
> > > value1=0.0, value2=300.0,
> > > /
> > > &wt
> > > type='TEMP0', istep1=10000, istep2=25000,
> > > value1=300.0, value2=300.0,
> > > /
> > > &wt
> > > type='END',
> > > /
> > > DISANG=Dummy.rst
> > > Movable belly for water and ions
> > > RES 25 9985
> > > END
> > > END
> > >
> > > This input file works fine in sander, but pmemd did not parse it
> > correctly. Unfortunately, I deleted the output file a couple of days
> > ago, and can't run another test right now b/c of issues with our
> > cluster, but I believe it was trying to interpret the
> > "DISANG=Dummy.rst" line as belly group input, and never read in the
> > weight changes. I can re-run the test as soon as our cluster problems
> > are resolved. Bob--I'm not sure why Xiaoqin's input was read in and
> > mine wasn't, but I can look into that too.
> > >
> > > Kristina
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > From: rduke_at_email.unc.edu
> > > > To: amber_at_ambermd.org
> > > > Subject: Re: [AMBER] question of ibelly used in pmemd
> > > > Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 11:53:50 -0400
> > > >
> > > > Well, okay, but I then can't verify/identify/fix the problem if you
> > don't
> > > > send me the system. Also, I find a 140K temperature drop in one
> > step to be
> > > > a little strange... As I say, it is possible that all aspects of
> > the nmr
> > > > restraints have not been checked out in the pmemd code, simply
> > because I
> > > > don't have test cases (this is a complaint I have had about our
> > test suites
> > > > for some time; since I don't use nmr restraints myself, I am not
> > going to
> > > > develop test cases). I would appreciate it if other folks who
> > actually work
> > > > with nmr restraints look at this system and see if they notice
> > anything a
> > > > bit unusual about it, or if some rarely tested code is being run
> > here. I
> > > > would also note that the minute you use nmropt = 1, pmemd speedup
> > is reduced
> > > > because I don't do the standard pmemd system decomposition, but
> > instead
> > > > behave more like sander. This was done precisely because I did not
> > have
> > > > test cases... I have modified the (ancient) nmr code to the
> > minimum extent
> > > > possible.
> > > > Regards - Bob Duke
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "xiaoqin huang" <xqhuang1018_at_msn.com>
> > > > To: <amber_at_ambermd.org>
> > > > Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 11:20 AM
> > > > Subject: RE: [AMBER] question of ibelly used in pmemd
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I first used sander for the same system, it has run well. Actually
> > I used
> > > > sander routinely with the same input file, i.e NMR restratint,
> > ibelly
> > > > groups.
> > > >
> > > > I tried to switch from sander to pmemd is that it is said pmemd is
> > better
> > > > paralleled and faster than sander, so I hoped that I would get the
> > same
> > > > output within much less time. but now I wasted so much time.
> > > >
> > > > so I tested pmemd, and at the same time keep running sander for the
> > same
> > > > system, and I already got what I want from running sander.
> > > >
> > > > p.s. the T=444.30 at the fist step (NSTEP=0) of output by pmemd is
> > the same
> > > > as that of the output by sander as I set ntx=1, irest=0,ig=2858,
> > then sander
> > > > outputs:
> > > > NSTEP = 2 TIME(PS) = 200.002 TEMP(K) = 298.08
> > > >
> > > > please see the attached file for the output of pmemd.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > From: rduke_at_email.unc.edu
> > > > > To: amber_at_ambermd.org
> > > > > Subject: Re: [AMBER] question of ibelly used in pmemd
> > > > > Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 10:42:15 -0400
> > > > >
> > > > > The IMPORTANT question is: Does sander work, or not, in the same
> > > > > situation?
> > > > > The distinction we are looking for is whether or not there is a
> > possible
> > > > > bug
> > > > > in pmemd. Given your initial conditions, with the temperature at
> > 444 or
> > > > > whatever it is, and a rapid rise in one step, there is a very
> > high
> > > > > probability that there is a problem not with pmemd, but with your
> > model
> > > > > system. The only reason I am marginally unsure is there is some
> > > > > possibility
> > > > > in some untested aspect of the nmr code in pmemd. If that is the
> > case,
> > > > > sander would work, and pmemd wouldn't. So if you want help,
> > either do the
> > > > > test I am asking you to do, or send me the system...
> > > > > Regards - Bob Duke
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "xiaoqin huang" <xqhuang1018_at_msn.com>
> > > > > To: <amber_at_ambermd.org>
> > > > > Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 10:21 AM
> > > > > Subject: RE: [AMBER] question of ibelly used in pmemd
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > thanks for your reply for so much detail!
> > > > >
> > > > > actually, the pmemd (amber 9), DOES NOT work (MD simulations)
> > with
> > > > > ibelly=1.
> > > > >
> > > > > When only ibelly=1, without any other restraints (no NMR
> > restraints), it
> > > > > read in correctly all the information of input file, but the MD
> > simulation
> > > > > started with big fluctuations of Etot in the output, and then
> > died.
> > > > >
> > > > > other information about my previous email
> > > > > 1) "533-150000" equals "533-100441" (actual number of residues of
> > the
> > > > > system), as the code can read in and reset the NRES;
> > > > > 2) I changed cutoff=15, into es_cutoff=8.0, and vdw_cutoff=9.0,
> > things
> > > > > came
> > > > > out the same, i.e. after 16 steps with big fluctuations in Etot,
> > then
> > > > > died;
> > > > > 3) the starting 444K was because I set ntx=1, irest=0,ig=2858,
> > ie. no
> > > > > initial velocity in inte input coordinate file.
> > > > > 4) the number of processors I used was 8.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > xiaoqin
> > > > > 07/20/2009
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > From: rduke_at_email.unc.edu
> > > > > > To: amber_at_ambermd.org
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [AMBER] question of ibelly used in pmemd
> > > > > > Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 11:48:41 -0400
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Okay, there is an &end on line 23 of tus1.in that I believe is
> > > > > > unnecessary,
> > > > > > but I don't think it is causing any problems. However I notice
> > that the
> > > > > > last
> > > > > > entry in your "belly group" residue listing, on line 49,
> > specifies
> > > > > > residues
> > > > > > 533-150000. That happens to be roughly 49,000 more residues
> > than your
> > > > > > system has... (the NRES printed out in your mdout says your
> > system has
> > > > > > 100,441 residues and 308,147 atoms). I would suspect that the
> > group
> > > > > > reading
> > > > > > code in pmemd as well as sander may have a bit of trouble with
> > this,
> > > > > > though
> > > > > > maybe I am wrong (well I looked, and it seems the code can, at
> > least on
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > quick read, reset any excessive residue numbers to nres; I
> > would still
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > do this) Another point, you specify a cutoff of 15 in your mdin
> > for an
> > > > > > ewald
> > > > > > run. This should work, but has no benefit whatsoever. In
> > fact, you are
> > > > > > probably running about six times slower than you really need to
> > because
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > this large cutoff, and consuming 6x as much memory in the
> > pairlists.
> > > > > > The
> > > > > > whole idea of particle mesh ewald, the default electrostatics
> > method in
> > > > > > pmemd or sander, is to combine a small direct space calc (ie.,
> > a short
> > > > > > default direct space cutoff) with a reciprocal space calc on
> > the rest of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > unit cell in order to get an electrostatics calc fully
> > representing the
> > > > > > system with no effective cutoff, accurate to 4-5 decimal
> > places, and
> > > > > > more
> > > > > > efficient (and accurate) than a pure cutoff system with a
> > longer cutoff.
> > > > > > Here, specifying a 15 angstrom cutoff, you are pretty much
> > shooting
> > > > > > yourself
> > > > > > in the foot and wasting computer time. If you want better vdw
> > numbers
> > > > > > than
> > > > > > provided by the 8 angstrom default, you can specify a longer
> > cutoff of
> > > > > > say
> > > > > > 9
> > > > > > angstroms; that combined with the default analytic vdw
> > correction
> > > > > > (vdwmeth
> > > > > > 1) will give you reasonable accuracy for your vdw numbers. So
> > looking
> > > > > > at
> > > > > > the output, you start hot (~444K) and quickly are heating
> > further, I
> > > > > > really
> > > > > > don't know what may be wrong with the system, and would have to
> > do a
> > > > > > bunch
> > > > > > more work with the whole system to know whether what you are
> > > > > > experiencing
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > caused by a bad system, bad input, or a bug. Once again, what
> > happens
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > sander? The output on group reads, nmr redirs, etc. looks
> > like
> > > > > > everything
> > > > > > was read fine in pmemd, but I really can't be sure based on the
> > info I
> > > > > > have.
> > > > > > I would try the smaller cutoff (just remove cut = 15 and you
> > will
> > > > > > default
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > 8) on a whim; it will greatly reduce your memory usage, and if
> > you are
> > > > > > running this on 8 cpu's in one box with limited memory (it is a
> > big
> > > > > > system),
> > > > > > that could help. But I still think that given that you start
> > at 444K
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > temp, you may have a basic system problem here, that will have
> > to be
> > > > > > fixed
> > > > > > by starting over and very carefully considering what you are
> > doing.
> > > > > > - Bob Duke
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "xiaoqin huang" <xqhuang1018_at_msn.com>
> > > > > > To: <amber_at_ambermd.org>
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, July 17, 2009 10:54 AM
> > > > > > Subject: RE: [AMBER] question of ibelly used in pmemd
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > thanks, but I still have question about pmemd run
> > > > > > here I attached again the modified input and output of pmemd
> > (amber 9),
> > > > > > please help me to figure out what is wrong over there.
> > > > > > >From the output file, I found that the ibelly groups were read
> > in, and
> > > > > > >the
> > > > > > >MD got started, but still something is wrong over there when
> > compare
> > > > > > >the
> > > > > > >energy terms of the first step in output file with those in
> > the output
> > > > > > >of
> > > > > > >sander runs for the same system.
> > > > > > and after several steps, it stoped.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > so even the ibeely group was read in, but I donot know how it
> > was
> > > > > > parsed.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > From: rduke_at_email.unc.edu
> > > > > > > To: amber_at_ambermd.org
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [AMBER] question of ibelly used in pmemd
> > > > > > > Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 17:56:00 -0400
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You have to use the group format like it says. I believe you
> > need to
> > > > > > > put
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > nmr redirection stuff after the last namelist, and then list
> > your
> > > > > > > belly
> > > > > > > restraints. The *.in you gave in your earlier mail does not
> > look
> > > > > > > correct
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > me, in that the group input does not start with a comment
> > card; you
> > > > > > > may
> > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > to look at the doc on GROUP input again.
> > > > > > > Regards - Bob Duke
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: "xiaoqin huang" <xqhuang1018_at_msn.com>
> > > > > > > To: <amber_at_ambermd.org>
> > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 5:28 PM
> > > > > > > Subject: RE: [AMBER] question of ibelly used in pmemd
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > thanks for reply, and I tested:
> > > > > > > 1) without nmropt=1, without ibelly=1, i.e. no restraints, no
> > > > > > > freezing,
> > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > regular MD.
> > > > > > > the outputs of both sander and pmemd are the same;
> > > > > > > 2) with nmropt=1, but without ibelly=1, i.e. restraints, but
> > no
> > > > > > > freezing,
> > > > > > > the restrained MD.
> > > > > > > the outputs of both sander and pmemd are the same;
> > > > > > > 3) with nmropt=1, with ibelly=1, i.e. restraints, and
> > freezing, do
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > MD
> > > > > > > again,
> > > > > > > when bellymask used, the error message is:
> > > > > > > "ERROR: PMEMD 9 does not support bellymask option!
> > Please use
> > > > > > > Amber
> > > > > > > 6/7 GROUP format instead".
> > > > > > > when the Amber 6/7 GROUP format is used, i.e. the input
> > file I
> > > > > > > attached in the previous email, the same error as described
> > in my
> > > > > > > previous
> > > > > > > email happened.
> > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > so, how to put ibelly=1 (group list or bellymask) in the
> > input file
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > be read in correctly by pmemd?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > From: rduke_at_email.unc.edu
> > > > > > > > To: amber_at_ambermd.org
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [AMBER] question of ibelly used in pmemd
> > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 14:22:23 -0400
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If you take the exact same system, run it in sander, and
> > run it in
> > > > > > > > pmemd,
> > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > should do the exact same thing for about 300-500 steps;
> > then the
> > > > > > > > systems
> > > > > > > > will diverge due to rounding errors in the algorithms
> > (which is of
> > > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > concern - just different regions in phase space). So, is
> > this what
> > > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > doing? If so, then it is likely their is some software
> > installation
> > > > > > > > problem
> > > > > > > > or hardware problem. Did pmemd pass the amber test suite
> > on your
> > > > > > > > machine?
> > > > > > > > It should. Okay, all that said, I looked at your mdin, and
> > you have
> > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > pretty complex setup, involving both belly and nmr
> > restraints.
> > > > > > > > There
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > some possibility this is not being parsed exactly correctly
> > in
> > > > > > > > pmemd,
> > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > think it is probably okay (I hardly ever use nmr
> > restraints, so
> > > > > > > > someone
> > > > > > > > more
> > > > > > > > familiar may want to look at how that is being used here).
> > Looking
> > > > > > > > at
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > output, what I see primarily is that the run goes for over
> > 10 steps,
> > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > then there is an end-of-file on the restrt file; I am
> > wondering if
> > > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > had
> > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > hardware issue of some sort here... I would retry with
> > both sander
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > pmemd, but for 10 steps, dumping output with each step
> > (ntpr = 1),
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > if there are any differences between pmemd and sander.
> > > > > > > > Regards - Bob Duke
> > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > From: "xiaoqin huang" <xqhuang1018_at_msn.com>
> > > > > > > > To: <amber_at_ambermd.org>
> > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 1:34 PM
> > > > > > > > Subject: [AMBER] question of ibelly used in pmemd
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hi, users,
> > > > > > > > I have a question about ibelly=1 used in pmemd simulations.
> > > > > > > > the situation is that I want to freeze some part of
> > residues/atoms
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > system, so I used the ibelly=1 in the sander, it works well
> > no
> > > > > > > > matter
> > > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > version (8, 9, 10).
> > > > > > > > when I used the same ibelly=1 in the pmemd (amber 9), the
> > MD runs
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > then
> > > > > > > > stopped with the message as vlimit exceeded for step 1...
> > > > > > > > here attached is the input file, output file and the error
> > message.
> > > > > > > > any suggestions or comments? thanks!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > xiaoqin
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 09/15/2009
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
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> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > AMBER mailing list
> > > > > > > AMBER_at_ambermd.org
> > > > > > > http://lists.ambermd.org/mailman/listinfo/amber
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > Windows LiveT: Keep your life in sync.
> > > > > >
> > http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_06200
> > 9
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
> > -----------------
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > AMBER mailing list
> > > > > > > AMBER_at_ambermd.org
> > > > > > > http://lists.ambermd.org/mailman/listinfo/amber
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > AMBER mailing list
> > > > > > AMBER_at_ambermd.org
> > > > > > http://lists.ambermd.org/mailman/listinfo/amber
> > > > >
> > > > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > > Windows LiveT HotmailR: Celebrate the moment with your favorite
> > sports
> > > > > pics.
> > > > > Check it out.
> > > > >
> > http://www.windowslive.com/Online/Hotmail/Campaign/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TA
> > GLM_WL_QA_HM_sports_photos_072009&cat=sports___________________________
> > ____________________
> > > > > AMBER mailing list
> > > > > AMBER_at_ambermd.org
> > > > > http://lists.ambermd.org/mailman/listinfo/amber
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > AMBER mailing list
> > > > > AMBER_at_ambermd.org
> > > > > http://lists.ambermd.org/mailman/listinfo/amber
> > > >
> > > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > Windows LiveT HotmailR: Celebrate the moment with your favorite
> > sports pics.
> > > > Check it out.
> > > >
> > http://www.windowslive.com/Online/Hotmail/Campaign/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TA
> > GLM_WL_QA_HM_sports_photos_072009&cat=sports
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -------------
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > AMBER mailing list
> > > > > AMBER_at_ambermd.org
> > > > > http://lists.ambermd.org/mailman/listinfo/amber
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > AMBER mailing list
> > > > AMBER_at_ambermd.org
> > > > http://lists.ambermd.org/mailman/listinfo/amber
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > Windows LiveT HotmailR: Celebrate the moment with your favorite
> > sports pics. Check it out.
> > >
> > http://www.windowslive.com/Online/Hotmail/Campaign/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TA
> > GLM_WL_QA_HM_sports_photos_072009&cat=sports___________________________
> > ____________________
> > > AMBER mailing list
> > > AMBER_at_ambermd.org
> > > http://lists.ambermd.org/mailman/listinfo/amber
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > AMBER mailing list
> > > AMBER_at_ambermd.org
> > > http://lists.ambermd.org/mailman/listinfo/amber
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Windows LiveT HotmailR: Search, add, and share the web's latest sports
> > videos. Check it out.
> > http://www.windowslive.com/Online/Hotmail/Campaign/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TA
> > GLM_WL_QA_HM_sports_videos_072009&cat=sports___________________________
> > ____________________
> > AMBER mailing list
> > AMBER_at_ambermd.org
> > http://lists.ambermd.org/mailman/listinfo/amber
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> AMBER mailing list
> AMBER_at_ambermd.org
> http://lists.ambermd.org/mailman/listinfo/amber

_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live™ Hotmail®: Search, add, and share the web’s latest sports videos. Check it out.
http://www.windowslive.com/Online/Hotmail/Campaign/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_QA_HM_sports_videos_072009&cat=sports_______________________________________________
AMBER mailing list
AMBER_at_ambermd.org
http://lists.ambermd.org/mailman/listinfo/amber